Joined: Aug 03, 2005 Posts: 209 Location: Olive Branch, MS
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:57 pm Post subject: Wheatfield - Rick Allen; You're Up
I started this thread in response to Rick's comments in the Troy Harman thread. Rick mentioned The Wheatfield and since I recently spent about 4 solid hours walking this ground with Mr. Wayne Wachsmuth, I couldn't resist.
My points to start the thread are two:
I'm still in awe of Kershaw and his boys for their willingness to charge back into the fray. I actually lost track of the exact number of times that his South Carolinians charged back into The Wheatfield after being driven back by Union brigades.
I ask the learned members to comment on this brigade and their actions in this part of the battle.
Did Caldwell unwisely feed his brigades in piecemeal or was this action the best way to handle a situation that was very fluid and fast changing? _________________ Respectfully yours,
Mike
"Our debt to the heroic men and valiant women in the service of our country can never be repaid. They have earned our undying gratitude. America will never forget their sacrifices." Harry S. Truman WWII Memorial
Last edited by Borderstates on Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total
RickAllen Official Chronicler of Gettysburg Tours!
Joined: Feb 13, 2004 Posts: 4288 Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:09 am Post subject:
Mike, Kershaw was one tenacious fellow, thats for sure. Most brigades may have disintegrated entirely after that tragic order, but somehow Joe managed to keep control of at least half the brigade. (He did lose control of the 15th SC though).
The key to the Wheatfield is the Stoney Hill. Without it, nobody is getting into the WF from the south... as Anderson found out. Kershaw only ever really got into the WF proper after Wofford started to close the bag and
everybody who was still alive went forward in the same wave, but his fighting on the Stoney Hill was as stubborn as it gets.
I dont think Caldwell fed his brigades in unwisely perse, but Kershaw had to deal with Kelly and Zook almost by himself while Cross was nosing forward against probably half of the 11 GA and everything moving up the nose of Houcks Ridge to its right. The gap in between Kelly and Cross was taken up by Brooke a bit later right up the gut of the WF proper and this nasty attack is what sent Anderson reeling back into the Rose Orchard and areas south. Brooke was unsupported of course in this advanced position (unless Sweitzers foray down to the Stone wall counts) and after a sharp fight with Semmes and reforming units of Andersons left, he had no choice but to bail out.
This crud is incredibly complicated! :bounce:
But I agree with your assesment of Kershaw, he fought his brigade magnificently on the whole and if he lost control of some units, considering what he was trying to do, I can forgive him.
Things didnt go perfectly for Joe, but he took things as they came and did a most credible job, IMHO.
Joined: Aug 03, 2005 Posts: 209 Location: Olive Branch, MS
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:27 am Post subject:
The walking tour that I took really crystallized the complexity of the troop movements. I know that most people want just the 2 hour full battlefield tour and then move on. After 4 hours in The Wheatfield, Triangular Field and Stony Hill, I couldn't even begin to understand the subtleties of this part of the battle.
I too agree that Caldwell didn't feed his troops in "piecemeal". I know that Sears makes this statement in his book. However, I think that he was responding to developments. If he had pushed his entire division into the Wheatfield in an echelon type attack, then I feel that other parts would have been further exposed (maybe flanked from Plum Run?). _________________ Respectfully yours,
Mike
"Our debt to the heroic men and valiant women in the service of our country can never be repaid. They have earned our undying gratitude. America will never forget their sacrifices." Harry S. Truman WWII Memorial
RickAllen Official Chronicler of Gettysburg Tours!
Joined: Feb 13, 2004 Posts: 4288 Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject:
Maybe Mike, I can't say. Other than the Regulars, there were still troops cabable of moving forward from the spine as the PA Reserves demonstrated. This was the straw that broke the camels back, but by the time the remnants of Semmes, Kershaw, Anderson and Woffords relatively unscathed brigade got to Plum Run, everyone other than Wofford was just out of juice. There are accounts of battleflags with about 12 guys around them, a flag every few yards or so, such were the grim results of exhaustion, confusion and heavy casualties.
Interestingly, except for Wofford (who was pissed to be withdrawn by Pete) the other "brigades" or more properly, what was left of them, upon seeing the strength of the line sloping northwards from LRT, by the unspoken common sense of veteran soldiers, (but without orders), just knew the gig was up and they beat feat back to the Wheatfield, in many cases captains commanding "regiments".
If one needs to be sated by gore and brutality, they will find no better place for studying it on the south end of the field than Rose Woods. Forget all that stuff from THE MOVIE when dead and wounded rebs carpeted the ground on LRT, a close look at statistics will reveal that
whatever the exaggeration involved, the Rose Woods was FAR worse.
It wasnt "900 dead' worse" as depicted on the Elliott map, but it was cruel enough to turn that woodlot into a seething cauldron of smoking lead. The infantry fire experienced along Rose Run was so intense that nobody in Andersons Brigade ever mentioned being under the artillery fire of Winslow and he shot hundreds of rounds at them, not counting whatever may have been blindly coming in from the WF rd gunline or LRT!!
Now THAT is some intense infantry fire. The 8th Ga took 36 0fficers into the fight at around 5pm and by dark they had 6. Thats right, 6.
This brings me to the manic herosim of the 17th ME, 110th PA and 5th MI, these were some fearsome hombres who took great joy in the slaughter they were able to serve by having a superior position. I'll babble more about this kind of thing on the tour this fall. That 17th ME especially is one
admirable unit.
Joshua who? :drunken: They were damn fine troops, its a shame thier commander was an "arsehole" to use Steves apt terminology.
Its really confusing. So much ebb and flow. I'm working on it though. Still, I gotta leave myself something for the tour, so I'll shut up.
Joined: Aug 03, 2005 Posts: 209 Location: Olive Branch, MS
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: The Tour
Rick,
Please give me some details about the tour (date / times). I have a few hunert thousent flyer miles and might burn a trip with U.S. Air (while I still can). _________________ Respectfully yours,
Mike
"Our debt to the heroic men and valiant women in the service of our country can never be repaid. They have earned our undying gratitude. America will never forget their sacrifices." Harry S. Truman WWII Memorial
I cannot think of a better reason to use those miles than to walk the ground with Rick on his tour. I am quite envious of all who will get to do just that. The man knows his stuff and presents in a very familiar, natural, way. One that makes you feel good just to be along for the ride. Few people have that ability--Rick is definately one of the choosen.
Joined: Jun 05, 2005 Posts: 1666 Location: Maryland
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject:
I would love to hear about the wheatfield. In '88 at the 125th Anniversary, I was part of the 3rd corps of the ANV and we did a 3.5 mile forced march out of Gettysburg and sat by a stream for a while. Heard the Cannons going off and figured we were being held in reserve and wouldn't see action that day. Then they rushed us back into town to finish the union army off in the Wheatfield. Needless to say after 7 miles of marching we slept good that night. :albino: _________________ He who finds no pleasure in a naked sword, a falcon's flight, a noble horse, a beautiful woman, has no real lust for life. (Early German Sword inscription)
RickAllen Official Chronicler of Gettysburg Tours!
Joined: Feb 13, 2004 Posts: 4288 Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:44 pm Post subject:
John, your account on Grand Cayman should be a bit beefier by now. :cheers:
Wow. What the hell can I say to that? Uh...........I think I will start with
"Thanks" and then clam up alltogether. :bounce:
That is too kind John, I'm not worthy of it, but one day I will be.
Uh, ....er,..............argh...........thanks man, thats way over the line praise for something unseen. I'll do my best though. I had very good teachers.
Joined: Jun 05, 2005 Posts: 1666 Location: Maryland
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject:
Rick's a Raven's fan....that speaks volumes about his intelligence! :cheers: _________________ He who finds no pleasure in a naked sword, a falcon's flight, a noble horse, a beautiful woman, has no real lust for life. (Early German Sword inscription)
Joined: Mar 20, 2004 Posts: 2519 Location: By the winding Allegheny
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject:
Rick,
I am hoping some of my friends from the 62nd Pa Vol can be there (they will be at the wax museum that weekend) for your tour as their ancestors were there that day and I believe they could greatly benefit from your insight and knowledge. Yeah , all the guys in the 62nd (they are part of the Lancaster group too) I know have ancestors who fought in that field that July 2.
So we'll see.
Lookin good gentlemen!
Mindy
P.S. Are there really snakes Rick? _________________ There is nothing so kingly as kindness; there is nothing so royal as truth.
I'm definitely looking forward to the walk. I understand fully as much about the Wheatfield as I do about Culp's Hill. That amounts to...
...nothing. :drunken:
Seriously, I've walked the Wheatfield with the likes of Wayne Wachsmuth, Scott Hartwig, and I still am confoosed. Since there wasn't any cavalry galloping around in there, I just have no idea what the hell went on.
RickAllen Official Chronicler of Gettysburg Tours!
Joined: Feb 13, 2004 Posts: 4288 Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject:
Yes Mindy, there will be lots of snakes. Just kidding, but its always wise to keep an eye peeled.
JD, on my very best day I couldnt hold a candle to Wayne or Scott, so I dont think I will be very much help! But, I'll do what I can. This is not going to be a full-fledged Wheatfield Tour, thats alot more than I could chew, but as far as the WF relates to the 8th GA (which is alot), I'll try to cover things as much as I am able. It all winds up tumbling together, which is why things are so damn hard to understand down there. I'd be blatently lying if I said I had it all nailed down, but I'll do what I can
JD. The best I can promise is that you wont be anymore confused after it than you were before it...............hopefully. :blackeye:
Much of what I am going to relate comes from the splendid Regimental History of the 8th called "A Scythe Of Fire" and it won't exactly line up with Phanz, Imhof, or anything else.....its kind of my own amalgamation of everything and of course it goes without saying that it will only be my own impressions,........ far from the final word on anything.
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