D.H. Hill vs. Stonewall Jackson

[billy_yank]

I came across a quote from James Longstreet, comparing D.H. Hill and Stonewall Jackson. He said, "General D.H. Hill's ... record was as good as that of Stonewall Jackson, but, not being a Virginian, he was not so well advertised."

Agree or disagree?

[James_Longstreet]

Agree!
Longstreet had serious problems with promotions in the ANV to key positions being handed to Virginians. He was extremely displeased that McLaws was 'held back' and D.H.Hill is another example.

It would be of service to us all to remember that D.H. Hill was recalled\reassigned back to SC for the 'defense of the State' with Lee's understanding that he'll be back once so ordered. The order went out with commencement of Gettysburg Campaign, but unfortunately the deed never happened.

Instead of wishing for a presence of a dead man, I always wondered what possibilities Gettysburg held if ALL absent Divisions & Brigades were present (e.g. D.H. Hill, Jenkins & Corse)
_________________
I Remain
Your Ob't Servant
Allan
Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day. Truth is eternal.
A Great Civilization is not Conquered from Without until It has Destroyed Itself from Within

[markpeters]

Whilst General Longstreet might agree with ... General Longstreet, can someone please indicate how D.H. Hill's performance was as good as General Jackson's.

Without being controversial, perhaps this was a case of one general from South Carolina singing the praises of another general from ... South Carolina. Also, D.H. Hill was relieved of his command because of certain problems with Bragg. Just trying to think of someone else, from South Carolina, who had similar problems with respecting the authority of the said commander...

Unlike Jackson, D.H. Hill spent most of his time guarding cities, recruiting troops, or running the defence of North Carolina. Perhaps these are some of the reasons why Jackson has appeared to receive a "better press". However, that is not to say that D.H. Hill was probably a very fine Major General.

Best wishes,

Mark

[James_Longstreet]

Mark - although James Longstreet was South Carolinian by birth, he ALWAYS identified himself with Georgia! The qoute thus is merely a jab at what he concidedred to be unfair advancement of Virginians over anyone else. Perhaps it is a folly to do it at Jackson's expence, but thats the way the chips fell.

However, young man, you CANNOT be serious about Hill having 'problems' with Bragg!!! Are you familiar with a rather famous and amusing story about Bragg having problems with Bragg????
_________________
I Remain
Your Ob't Servant
Allan
Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day. Truth is eternal.
A Great Civilization is not Conquered from Without until It has Destroyed Itself from Within

[markpeters]

General Longstreet,

Well, let me answer this way. I am certainly aware that the said Corps Commander complained about his commanding officer, to the CS President no less, after the AoT victory at Chickamauga.

As a result, of Hill's attack on Bragg's performance, Jefferson Davis felt it appropriate to remove Hill from his command. He also refused to forward Hill's name for confirmation of his earlier temporary promotion.

As for Bragg. Were you perhaps referring to an episode when as quartermaster he twice declined his own request for supplies? Almost as amusing as the attempted assassination; when his bed was blown up but he survived without a scratch!

Best wishes,

Mark

[Basecat]

Unlike Jackson, D.H. Hill spent most of his time guarding cities, recruiting troops, or running the defence of North Carolina. Perhaps these are some of the reasons why Jackson has appeared to receive a "better press". However, that is not to say that D.H. Hill was probably a very fine Major General.


Mark,

D.H. Hill participated in many of the early battles in the East, and, IMHO was one of the fightingest Generals Lee had at his disposal. Yeah he could be a pain in the arse, and probably the main reason why Lee shipped him out, but it is one huge mistake on Lee's part that he did so.

One of my fave stories of Hill and Jackson deals with a conversation they had while Stonewall was courting soon to be wife number 2...Hill's sister in law. Jackson complained to him how sickly he was feeling, and that nausea was rampant. Hill replied to him by saying you are not sick...you are in love..:)

Regards from the Garden State,

Steve Basic

[markpeters]

Steve,

In some private correspondence with General Longstreet yesterday, I praised D.H. Hill's early performance (at Seven Pines and the 7 Days) as a divisional commander. It appears he also performed well, as a volunteer aid, on Beauregard's staff.

However, I think he went too far in his opposition to Bragg and was totally wrong in not attacking Negley, as ordered by Bragg, on 10th September 1863. I'm aware he was not the only one refusing to follow orders at this time, but it didn't make him right.

In my opinion, I believe that D.H. Hill showed himself to be a fine divisional commander, but failed totally as a Corps Commander. As I said to Allan, without knowing the context of the quote, perhaps A.P. Hill (a Virginian) or R. Ewell (almost a Virginian) would have been fairer comparisons for Longstreet.

So, as I wrote earlier ... it appears totally unreasonable for Longsreet to have suggested D.H. Hill's performances were as good as Jackson's. It's like comparing apples with oranges! The fact that D.H. Hill had been Jackson's brother-in-law seems to make the comparison even more unfortunate.

Best wishes,

Mark

P.S. I can't recall having heard the story about Jackson's "nausea". Thanks for passing it on.

[James_Longstreet]

[markpeters]

General Longstreet,

Now that is a loaded question!

Best wishes,

Mark

[RebelLady]

Regarding Gen Bragg...Mark, are you aware of the fact that MOST of the men who were assigned to Bragg's command had a problem with Bragg? The only reason Bragg stayed in command as long as he did was because of his friendship with Jefferson Davis; it was not due to any great military genius on his part.

As for the D.H. Hill-vs-T.J. Jackson argument goes, I think it is fair to say that both men were fighters, both men were very capable generals and both men had their faults.

I must say, though, that I concur with General Longstreet ( the historical Longstreet, that is) that Hill received short shrift. In the reading I have done, comparing both men, I have found that Hill appears to have been every bit as good as Jackson, if not a little better. The problem, I believe, lies in the fact that Jackson understood the way Gen Lee's mind worked better than most, which is what made them work so well as a team. I don't believe that Hill had that kind of understanding; further, I feel that Hill's personality was such that would preclude him from being able to rise far in Lee's estimation.
_________________
*Lynne*

~~~Duty, then is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less.~~~ Robert E. Lee

[markpeters]

Lynne,

I personally believe that the idea Bragg kept his command because of a perceived friendship, with Davis, is a bit of a fallacy. Davis was certainly far more closely associated with Polk, one of the anti-Bragg ringleaders, and logic would have dictated that Davis would have sided with him.

Indeed, Davis initially asked Johnston to sort out the problems, and it was he who decided to keep Bragg. Mainly, because Johnston regarded the AoT morale high after Chickamauga; notwithstanding the almost open rebellion of some senior officers. Bragg also offered to resign on several occasions, in order that harmony was restored in the AoT.

However, it is clear that Bragg's relationship with those around him, throughout his career, seem to be in stark contrast with how he managed to convince those with the real authority that he was the man for the job. I think we have a term for that kind of person ...

I also feel particulalry sorry for Hill, as it would appear that some (such as Hardee) ensured he 'took the can' when the cabal failed to gain support from Davis.

As for comparison with Jackson, you still need to look at their performances at the highest level. Jackson had the Peninsular Campaign, Antietam, and Chancellorsville, of note. One as an independent command, and two as a Corps Commander. I'm sorry, but D.H. Hill just didn't perform at that level ... That is not to say he couldn't have done if given the opportunity. But, then we're going back to what-ifs!

Best wishes,

Mark

[RebelLady]

Mark, you say we need to look at their performances on the highest level. What, exactly, do you mean by "the highest level"?

In the Mexican War, both men were breveted twice for their actions in the line of duty.

Both men resigned their commissions and became instructors at military colleges; Jackson at VMI, Hill at the North Carolina Military Institute (of which he was superintendant).

During the Civil War, both men were effective in their commands, though I disagree with your assessment of Jackson's performance in the Peninsular Campaign; I believe Hill performed much more ably during that period than did Jackson. As for Sharpsburg (which you refer to as "Antietam"), it was Hill who rallied a few detached men to hold the line at a critical moment; it was Hill who was in the Bloody Lane.

The fact of the matter is that you can't really compare the two on "the highest level", because Hill was never given the opportunity to prove his mettle as a Corps Commander, and I truly believe that one of the reasons for this was because of the fact that he was not a Virginian. With the exception of Longstreet, weren't the Corps Commanders of the ANV Virginians? Doesn't that seem the least bit odd, considering the number of regiments from other states that were included in the ANV?
_________________
*Lynne*

~~~Duty, then is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less.~~~ Robert E. Lee

[James_Longstreet]

Bravo, Lynne!!!

Now, all of that aside, I would also have a bit of a problem talking about Jackson's performance in Peninsular Campaign. IMHO, there is NONE! Let me elaborate - Jackson shows up from the Valley on, IIRC Day 6 of 7-Days Battle. Although the time of the arrival and thus the pivot of the whole battle is fixed by him (after being 'gently prodded' by Longstreet to an 'extra day'), he is LATE and practically NON-EXISTANT! (yeah, yeah - he was 'sick and exhausted'). It is unquestionably THIS performance (or lack thereof) that costs him Lt-Gen Seniority (understanding mindset of REL or not and Virginian or not). Even if anyone wants to argue that from that moment on he was on top of things - the Peninsular Campaign for all purposes is practically over!

I believe what Mark is trying to refer to is the Valley Campaign, especially in view of his comment

[James_Longstreet]

Billy-Yank
I believe the quote is from FMTA but cannot located. If so - would you kindly point me to the right chapter, et al and if not - reveal the source.

Much obliged
_________________
I Remain
Your Ob't Servant
Allan
Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day. Truth is eternal.
A Great Civilization is not Conquered from Without until It has Destroyed Itself from Within

[markpeters]

Lynne,