Grant and the bottle

GKWEAGLE1 · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: Grant and the bottle

Hi all,

In Steve Woodwoths new book, Nothing but Victory which is the story of the Union army of the Tennesse, he alludes to Grants "problem" in the beginning of the book.

This is something that never dies and I would ,love to see if we can put it to bed once andfor all. In otherwords is it true or is it another one of those myths that never seems to go away?

So can you all supply something frim facts on this?

Jim

James_Longstreet · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject:

Jim,
Grant got drunk while leading the AoP on a While Horse looking for shoes on his way to Gettysburg with a bunch of repeaters fastened to his saddle

My understanding of the whole Grant a Drunkard issue is that he drank primarily when lonely (which did NOT happened often), but that he also couldn't HOLD his drink! Thus I believe the notion that he drank by the bottles is probably a bunch of crap. Seems a glass or two was enough to do the deed.
_________________
I Remain
Your Ob't Servant
Allan
Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day. Truth is eternal.
A Great Civilization is not Conquered from Without until It has Destroyed Itself from Within

Basecat · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject:

greg · General Joined: Sep 14, 2005 Posts: 300 Location: PA ,USA

So Grant was a binge drinker at times?

RebelLady · General Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Posts: 496 Location: Alabama

The whole "Grant as a drinker" thing was started when someone read a memo to Grant from his Chief of Staff, John Rawlins, in which Rawlins said that he had urged Grant to stay away from the bottle, without reading the end of the sentence, which stated "which you did". The evidence suggests that Grant's "problem" with alcohol pretty much began and ended when he was in California, away from his wife and children. As General Longstreet stated, Grant basically drank when he was lonely.
_________________
*Lynne*

~~~Duty, then is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less.~~~ Robert E. Lee

markpeters · Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject:

Lynne,

Rubbish!!! Grant was christened a drinker well before then. Still, that would kill one of those sacred cows.

Mark

James_Longstreet · Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:00 am Post subject:

Mark -
Well, Lynne's response is not completely 'rubbish'. You most likely are applying it to the first part, but whether or not we agree on it's context - there is no dispute that her 2nd part is correct. The problem seem to start in California, as she indicated.

What I want to point out is that he very well could've been Christened a 'drunkard', but from everything I know - it does not indicate that he drank like a fish. As I have posted earlier - it would take a measly amount of alcohol to make him intoxicated.... and if a man is drunk - he's DRUNK! And, as is, I am not disputing this issue. The only distinction I caution everyone to make is not to make assumptions that he was guzzling down booze by the bottles at one sitting (which, unfortunately, is the immediate image popping into everyone's heads). That, simply, is not true - sacred cows or not.
_________________
I Remain
Your Ob't Servant
Allan
Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day. Truth is eternal.
A Great Civilization is not Conquered from Without until It has Destroyed Itself from Within

billy_yank · Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject:

The amount of alcohol consumed would not really matter, at least not to me. Whether one got drunk off a couple of drinks, or whether one got drunk off many drinks, i.e., tolerance level. What I would care about is whether or not the drinking ever occurred in the heat of campaigns or battles, such that it affected his decision making, planning, sending men and units into battle, etc. Is there any good evidence that Grant's drinking ever strayed into this area?

Marsh · General Joined: Aug 15, 2008 Posts: 328

hughes · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: need help, as always

This topic is at the heart of all matters, to me; perception and reality. All that I have read on it is Eward Longacre. So, rescue me again, please, what sources are there that are reliable regarding Grant and drinking on the Yazoo and at Petersburg?

I also wonder if Grant drank to excess, even upon rare occassions, why his star would not shine even brighter because of his ultimate success.. See Alexander the Great.

billy_yank · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject:

I guess a big question is how accurate is Cadwallader's account a Grant bender during the siege of Vicksburg in June, 1863. I can't begin to critique the reliability of the account. What did Longacre say about it? Also, I would like to know how Brooks Simpson and William McFeely handled the topic in their biographies of Grant, if anyone knows.

Marsh · General Joined: Aug 15, 2008 Posts: 328

hughes · Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: for billy_yank

My memory, fallable and selective, regarding Dr. Longacre's, account suggests that he stated that General Grant was a binge drinker who drank himself into insensiblity on three occassions in 1863. I believe that he further stated that General Grant was not, and this is a paraphrase, a classic falling down drunk because he could and did pass up drinking, either by his own force of will or with the guidance of close associates.

I do not remember how and when I read that account. If my representation of it is not accurate, I apologize. I do remember that it was in connection with a search for information regarding the Vicksburg Campaign: one of the two most significant events in the war. The other being General Sherman's Georgia activities. Sorry Eastern folks, I saw that somehow my total of posts had reached 100, with no base of knowledge to support that number, so I allowed myself a bit of haughtiness